hi ayo
thanks for your considerate reply. i often feel what i know is only my small corner of the world. but for some reason i want to share it with others. when i was in nigeria last summer i heard many times about nigerians' feelings of betrayal concerning s.a., that is, the horrible formation of makewerkwere prejudices against nigerians, forgetting what it meant that nigeria was not only a front line state but a major supporter of the struggle.
i do agree that it is important to remember that, not only because of the ideals that not only nigeria, but all of black africa, really shared for that struggle. they were not shared, i would say, in north africa, say, which held so much onto racist sentiments and indifference to the black population in their own countries. it might take a long time for that to change.
i don't want to go on with the debate over winnie: she was a hero to many of us for a very long time, and that weighs in her favor. for the rest, there is time enough to let it go: the anc already took its actions against her, why should we do more. the u.s. shifted from being a society wrenched over revolutionary beliefs in the 1970s to a reaction against that in the 1980s, a horrible turn for someone like me, for many many like me, who saw the end of whatever ideals were born in kennedy's day, and in mlk's day, and in malcolm's day, coming to an agonizing end with reagan, reagan and thatcher and the end of our hopes of progressive, radical, liberatory change. mandela was in prison all that time. that's all we could say. he was part of the entire leadership that was in exile or dead or on robbins island. we never singled him out; it was the movement that mattered, and it was a live movement you supported or didn't. his release from jail signaled the possibility of the movement actually succeeding.
the deal with the devil that followed undercut the high goals we had, but we knew we had to be patient and pragmatic. in the end, with mbeki and now zuma, it is hard to see the great hopes of yesterday as guiding the direction of today. we've been submerged by the sweep of neoliberal thought, and even as it is abating, the end of radical ideals has been largely effected. mandela never led us to accept that end. but the struggle of today can't be stupid and imagine a repeat of yesterday.
i will tell you only this one thing: we lived in an amazing time in the 1960s and 1970s, when the changes were on the scale of great historic moments, changes in the human spirit. we couldn't sustain it, and there are efforts all the time to erase them. they will become history--i.e., forgotten. but i hope their afterwaves will have some life still for the future.
ken
thanks for your considerate reply. i often feel what i know is only my small corner of the world. but for some reason i want to share it with others. when i was in nigeria last summer i heard many times about nigerians' feelings of betrayal concerning s.a., that is, the horrible formation of makewerkwere prejudices against nigerians, forgetting what it meant that nigeria was not only a front line state but a major supporter of the struggle.
i do agree that it is important to remember that, not only because of the ideals that not only nigeria, but all of black africa, really shared for that struggle. they were not shared, i would say, in north africa, say, which held so much onto racist sentiments and indifference to the black population in their own countries. it might take a long time for that to change.
i don't want to go on with the debate over winnie: she was a hero to many of us for a very long time, and that weighs in her favor. for the rest, there is time enough to let it go: the anc already took its actions against her, why should we do more. the u.s. shifted from being a society wrenched over revolutionary beliefs in the 1970s to a reaction against that in the 1980s, a horrible turn for someone like me, for many many like me, who saw the end of whatever ideals were born in kennedy's day, and in mlk's day, and in malcolm's day, coming to an agonizing end with reagan, reagan and thatcher and the end of our hopes of progressive, radical, liberatory change. mandela was in prison all that time. that's all we could say. he was part of the entire leadership that was in exile or dead or on robbins island. we never singled him out; it was the movement that mattered, and it was a live movement you supported or didn't. his release from jail signaled the possibility of the movement actually succeeding.
the deal with the devil that followed undercut the high goals we had, but we knew we had to be patient and pragmatic. in the end, with mbeki and now zuma, it is hard to see the great hopes of yesterday as guiding the direction of today. we've been submerged by the sweep of neoliberal thought, and even as it is abating, the end of radical ideals has been largely effected. mandela never led us to accept that end. but the struggle of today can't be stupid and imagine a repeat of yesterday.
i will tell you only this one thing: we lived in an amazing time in the 1960s and 1970s, when the changes were on the scale of great historic moments, changes in the human spirit. we couldn't sustain it, and there are efforts all the time to erase them. they will become history--i.e., forgotten. but i hope their afterwaves will have some life still for the future.
ken
On 12/11/13 3:29 PM, Ayo Obe wrote:
Ken, my apologies for dismissing the contribution of some people in the United States to the struggle against apartheid. Gloria has also pointed to the contribution of others. In Nigeria, South Africa's apparent disregard (measured by the fact that our President was not invited to speak at the memorial service) of the contribution that we made - government and individuals - to the struggle against apartheid including support for the armed struggle, is the subject of comment, so I'm not the only unaware or forgetful one.However, political parties do not seek power promising injustice and oppression, so I don't think that the ANC, promising justice and equity was unusual, nor do I think it should be held to a higher standard because it fought apartheid with tough weapons. I was a member of Amnesty International when I was at university yet it famously refused to adopt Nelson Mandela as a Prisoner of Conscience because he refused to discountenance violence as a legitimate weapon in the fight against apartheid. It may be that the support of some in the US was predicated on the belief that Mandela was a kind of South African Martin Luther King Jnr. but if Winnie Mandela sinned, or refused to eat humble pie, I cannot condemn her.
AyoI invite you to follow me on Twitter @naijama--hi ayo
this is a long posting, and i want to speak kind of briefly to one or two points.
first, a political party not grounded in the struggle for justice--that's what? is this a way of saying politics has nothing to do with morality, or justice, anything goes, realpolitik? no, there is a difference between a fascist party and a democratic party.
anyway, my real attention is caught by your dismissal of american involvement. were you there? what is the basis for your claims?
i will make only a few statements, not as an historian, not someone who can speak at all about the extent of activism in the u.k. versus the u.s.
in the 1970s, early 1970s, the Southern African Liberation Committee was formed on my campus. it was never large, but had a very large impact with the vast number of students and faculty in support of our actions. SALC embraced the ANC call for action, and for the boycott. it led my city, east lansing, to accept the boycott. it led michigan state university to be the first major u.s. university to divest, and the state of michigan to divest. it led campaigns to shed the money donated by the s african supporter, mcgoff. mandela came here for an honorary doctorate; we were one of the last places to be visited by chris hani before he returned to be shot; we welcomed bob vassan, an anc organizer in london, onto our staff, and he, a friend of ahmed kathrata, brought kathrata's archives here.
i could go on and on, believe me. we were active from the 70s until freedom, in many ways.
i can't speak for other campuses, but we were not in california, my friend, nor in new york. yet we were hyperactive. at one point, in our campaign for the boycott, we erected a shantytown, in the winter, in front of our school administration building, covering a sizable area. people raised their kids in the protests here, we contributed to the anc campaigns. not sure what they did in england, but we were not quiet. the struggle was incorporated into our courses, our organizing, our political consciousness. how can you belittle it?
shall we talk about academic organizations here? the African Literature Association, under the strong influence of dennis brutus, and a large contingent of south africans, campaigned for the academic boycott of south africa, and after a terrific fight, we won. it was not universally seen as reasonable. the african studies assn wasn't even close to such a political commitment. but if you were in the field of african literature, you were intimately confronted with that struggle, and it affected every one of our conferences and actions over the years.
i guess it bothers me that we were so deeply engaged in that struggle for so long, and you can so blithely dismiss it. please ask people about their campuses and communities elsewhere. i know that brutus led a sports boycott throughout the country; that the campaign was active in chicago. where exactly was it so small again?
and to dismiss it as support for a saint? no, it was not about mandela; it was about ending apartheid, and he was part of the struggle, not the meaning of the struggle. did we come late to the struggle? who? reagan? we fought reagan just as the brits did thatcher, we weren't defined by his retrograde politics. the "we" i am speaking about is not democrats either, it was activists, people who had a set of political principles worth fighting for and risking much for. and those principles applied to south africans, some of whom returned, like mphahalele, and were condemned for their accommodationism, and others like winnie who was widely admired for her stoicism and resistance.
we can't admire her for positive qualities, and then ignore it when there were actions taken that discredited the movement.
anyway, nuff
kenOn 12/10/13 2:02 PM, Ayo Obe wrote:Listen Ken, the ANC was a political party, not an NGO. Is there any political party that puts up injustice and inequality as its goal?The Sharpville massacre did not noticeably change the attitude of the West in general and the right in particular towards the evil of apartheid in the 1960s. And although the struggle against apartheid was taken up by the left in Britain, I don't think much was heard from the United States except acceptance of the system. Even the Soweto uprising of June 1976 seemed to lead only to some disinvestment campaigns on some of the more radical campuses in California. In fact, it was not until Jimmy Carter had been defeated by Ronald Reagan in the 1980 presidential election, that the Democrats, looking for something around which to organise, really took up the struggle against apartheid and threw themselves in the demand for sanctions against South Africa. But should that decision by Americans looking for a cause turn the ANC from what it was - a political party seeking power - into a quasi-religious holier than thou organisation into which everybody could invest their own hopes and ideals?I don't think that Americans, who came late to the struggle, should be allowed to not only get away with refashioning Mandela in their own idealised image, but to airbrush away the fact of the ANC as a party with political goals: where would the armed struggle fit in with that? By contrast, Nigeria under Tafawa Balewa was the first African country to offer aid to the ANC. We named ourselves a front line state and had anti-apartheid clubs in schools across the country. And we didn't imagine that the victims of the apartheid regime were under any obligation to become better and nobler human beings in order to qualify for our support.To my mind, it is only those who came to the struggle in the era of disinvestment campaigns, pop concerts and "Freeeeeeeeee Nelson Mandela" that can imagine that Winnie Mandela has any case to answer. Because they imagine that it was just a case of moral suasion and the superiority of 'Saint' (an image he himself rightly rejected) Nelson that defeated apartheid. The American War of Independence has been hallowed by the mists of time, so the idea that perceived or suspected traitors were dealt with with kid gloves may seem plausible and even reasonable. Or maybe there weren't any. But I have enough imagination to put myself into the situation of a leader of the struggle in the darkest days of apartheid, a leader under threat and under physical, emotional, material, financial and moral attack. I don't know what is the fate of those Palestinians perceived as working or spying for Israel, but in the case of Winnie Mandela, to which court did those criticising her think that she should have taken the suspected traitors? What security was offered to her?No wonder that when the AU Chair was reciting the history of how Africa united against apartheid and opened its doors to offer training to the armed wing of the ANC to prepare them for the armed struggle, the BBC - which I happened to be watching at the time - started talking over her with the words: "As we wait for President Obama to speak ..."Obama rightly described Mandela as "the greatest liberator of the last century", but just as a bloodbath was confidently predicted for the end of the Nigerian civil war, a bloodbath was also predicted for the end apartheid. We in Nigeria managed to avoid such bloodbath though we had no Mandela, while in South Africa the bloodletting turned in upon itself with the fighting between the ANC and the Inkatha Freedom Party. Surely that should give us pause for thought about the kind of threat that Winnie Mandela faced?
AyoI invite you to follow me on Twitter @naijama--i favored the militant struggle, for sure
that's a separate issue. i was discussing how the movement metes out justice. i supported the revolution in cuba, too. the question of a just order doesn't end when we support militant struggle! not before the revolution, not during the revolution, not after the revolution. conditions have to be taken into account; but justice can't be thrown out the window. we were struggling for a just order: can we obtain a just order by unjust means? armed struggle is often necessary, and it always had to determine how to mete out just sentences for its opponents.
cuba is an example where the exigencies of revolution were taken to trump the need for justice, at least to some extent. at that point, the regime has to be open to criticism as well.
kOn 12/10/13 9:53 AM, Chambi Chachage wrote:--Ken, what about Nelson Mandela's led Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK)?
From: kenneth harrow <harrow@msu.edu>
To:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Nadira Naipaul's essay on Winnie Mandela's narrative and the struggle to end apartheiddear ikhide and lavonda
i think we've been around this cirlce before, where i expressed my dismay over winnie's necklacing and authorizing of the killing of stompie moeketsi who had supposedly betrayed her.
there is a real question for us, anyway for those of us who are activists. it is a real question; it was a real question then. with all the speechifying over mandela with his death, we are back, in our memories, in the time of the long protests against apartheid. the question was, what are the limits of our protest; what are we trying to achieve. winnie's excesses were more than warts, they hurt the movement. we participated in a world-wide boycott, struggled with fellow activists, comrades, and were willing to make sacrifices to fight apartheid. so we have and had the right to judge when actions were taken that hurt that struggle, and we had, and have the right to say, the struggle should not go this far.
it was a great shock to discover that anc camps tortured those suspected of being traitors when our own struggle was against the torture of anc supporters. we were fighting for a just order, not just a black order.
that is still true today. the postings that i've been reading on our list posit an order today in south africa in which the whites remain in control of the economy and the state. is that really true? what i hear from my s african friends is that the anc and its friends have entered significantly into the economy at all levels, that it is no longer the progressive liberationist movement we had supported. but it isn't true that whites remain in control of the economy any more, even if there is a disproportionate number of whites who remain wealthy. mandela left that economic order in place.
i repeat, we struggle for a just order, and the disappointment is that the end of apartheid didn't bring economic justice to south africa. but it did end the order of racial oppression and discrimination.
there is another question, at least for my generation, a generation that had to accept or reject much that was done in the name of revolution--from che to winnie--which was how to understand and frame revolutionary justice. it can't be reduced to a simple, i liked che or i liked winnie. we were fighting for ideals. let's keep our evaluation of these figures focused on those goals and not reduce them to something as trivial as "heroes." the question remains, in the name of the struggle, what is permissible. it is a question even the followers of boko haram or al qaeda must be asking themselves.
if you want to tell me why they are bad movements, then tell my why it is okay for winnie to decide to kill a boy who had opposed her. or why torture was ok in the anc camps in angola.
here;s the bottom line: the movement was human, and had to determine for itself what was acceptable and what was not. that means the issue is still there for us to debate. it gets closed down when we idealize fellow activists, as if we had to obey them instead of using our own judgment.
kenOn 12/10/13 8:17 AM, Ikhide wrote:La Vonda,I admire, respect, and love Winnie Mandela, warts and all. We all are here today, because of her hard work. If Mandela can forgive 9% of a population that did horrific things and still does, to the rest, it would be stupid on my part to judge Winnie. There is politics in the narrative and you know what Achebe reminds us, until the lion tesla the story of the hint, the hunt will always be glorified by the hunter. All we are reacting to is a predominantly white perspective. Winnie Mandela and the other warriors, Nelson Mandela included, made many mistakes. We were at war and we are still at war.Finally, there is a reason for my madness. It is this: Nigeria's collapsed educational system has robbed many generations of youths historical context, comprehension skills, and more importantly, the power of independent critical thinking. What ASUU and our successive rulers have done to our educational system is akin to water and fire damage. All at once. Be well. *cycles away slowly*
- Ikhide--And you admire her even though it is alleged she turned an angry hand to other Black South Africans? How did those little murdered teen aged boys further the revolution?--On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 5:15 AM, Ikhide <xokigbo@yahoo.com> wrote:I love Winnie Mandela, as a child, I only knew of Mandela because of one woman, Winnie Mandela, she who would not stop counting the hawks swooning down on the chicks. She is flawed, so effing what? @ikhide: The offspring of those who annihilated and subjugated millions of black South Africans now sit in judgement over Winnie Mandela. This life.
Nonsense.- IkhideWinnie is human after all, just as Mandela was. And I suspect she naively underestimated the complex tapestry of compromises and pragmatic manoeuvres that constrained African nationalism. I wonder what she would have done if she had been given Mandela's terrible predicament.
Or, should I even wonder at all? The fire inside of her portends a huge national conflagration.
Is Winnie still the naïve revolutionary?
Adeshina AfolayanSent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTNFrom: Ikhide <xokigbo@yahoo.com>Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 12:52:03 -0800 (PST)To: Toyin Falola<USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>ReplyTo: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.comSubject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Nadira Naipaul's essay on Winnie Mandela's narrative and the struggle to end apartheid--""I cannot forgive him for going to receive the Nobel [Peace Prize in 1993] with his jailer [FW] de Klerk. Hand in hand they went. Do you think de Klerk released him from the goodness of his heart? He had to. The times dictated it, the world had changed, and our struggle was not a flash in the pan, it was bloody to say the least and we had given rivers of blood. I had kept it alive with every means at my disposal".We could believe that. The world-famous images flashed before our eyes and I am sure hers. The burning tyres - Winnie endorsed the necklacing of collaborators in a speech in 1985 ("with our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country") - the stoning, the bullets, the terrible deaths of "informers". Her often bloodthirsty rhetoric has marred her reputation."Look at this Truth and Reconciliation charade. He should never have agreed to it." Again her anger was focused on Mandela. "What good does the truth do? How does it help anyone to know where and how their loved ones were killed or buried? That Bishop Tutu who turned it all into a religious circus came here," she said pointing to an empty chair in the distance."He had the cheek to tell me to appear. I told him a few home truths. I told him that he and his other like-minded cretins were only sitting here because of our struggle and ME. Because of the things I and people like me had done to get freedom.""If you have the time, please read this essay. It humanizes Winnie Mandela and situates her in a very complex situation, she is her own best advocate. Nadira is VS Naipaul's spouse. This essay is an account of Winnie Mandela's meeting with her and VS.- IkhideStalk my blog at http://www.xokigbo.com/Follow me on Twitter: @ikhideJoin me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/ikhide
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