Reading all this debates below, I think Black people should be careful about criticizing the institution of racism that was instituted in the past by Whites. I can now understand how the Nazis killed the Jews and the Japanese were put in internment camp. I have no reason now to deny that given the same opportunity, there is no guarantee to believe that Black people are inherently immune from committing heinous acts of hatred like racism if it will further their interests, broadly defined. Deep down we are all the same; I feel humbled as a Black person reading all this. And it is coming from a part of Nigeria that someone from Bauchi State like me looks up to as an example of a region of the country with high level of education, awareness and social sophistication.
To conflate standing up for the human dignity of people in Nigeria who are gays with promoting inappropriate sexual behavior is a lack of deep thinking in my view. Fornication and adultery is not criminalized in Nigeria but Islam and Christian have no hierarchy of sins in this respect. I know the same people will object to fornicators and adulterers being publicly disciplined as was the case with the controversy on disciplining women in Sharia who were found to be pregnant out of marriage, but there was no witness to the sexual act. If the argument is cultural, then there is nothing about the creation and use of culture that makes it impossible for abuse because of human fallibility. Culture is not a sanctuary clinically free from sin to anyone who studies it. After all, violence was an inherent part of the creation of Christian and Islamic cultures for anyone who cares to study the history of the two religions carefully.
One leader of the religious right in America said that once you agree that people have the right to self-defense, there is no limit to what they can use for self-defense. Presumably at some point people may need nuclear bomb for personal self-defense. This is why I earlier made the point that at some point the strong language that people use with regard to homosexuality can lead to civil war, and the language used in some of the debates below suggests this is possible if the people have the means to use violence to achieve their goal. Throughout history, before people commit violence against others, they first begin by coming up with a discourse that takes away the humanity of the people who are going to be the object of the violence. Doing so exonerates the conscience of the perpetrators of violence when they commit it and making it to look normal. I can see some elements of that in the debate below.
As Zimbarbo said, often when evil occurs, we focus on the evil act, but based on his experiment, what we need to focus on is the process that leads to the act. We learn better through understanding the process. Those heterosexual men who committed rape against women, girls, children, grand mothers etc, in the Democratic Republic of Congo are normal human beings. In one national geographic documentary on evil, they went to interview some of the women that were victims, and they deliberately asked them whether they thought the people who committed these rapes were ghosts or normal human beings. The women said they are normal human beings. The question then is: what went into their minds? I suppose some people will find that tolerable since it did not involve homosexual act. But will God feel the same way?
What I see in all this debate in an unavoidable conclusion: humans often end up socially constructing God. What they hate is what God hates, and what they like is what God likes. At a deeper anthropological level, it is difficult for humans to talk about God outside their experiences, and that is why the way people in the first century or 8th century talk about God is different from the way we do today because our minds and brains are not the same; we are not "tabula rasa." To me, anyone of us can be hated, irrespective of being straight or educated. It is just a question of what the person doing the hating based on his or her power, privilege, knowledge, understanding and courage to harm another person is willing to engage in in order to achieve his or her goal.
I am not a gay person, and know nothing about it experiential. But I will not allow any religious teaching to make me dehumanize a gay person on the understanding that because I am heterosexual I have no sin and I am pious before God. Being a homosexual which in religious terms is sin, does not still make the gay person loses his or her "being created in the image of God" if I may use this Christian language; my apology to those who are not familiar with the Christian tradition. If sin per se would make someone lose that status then all of us are in the same boat theologically. Religious people may like me or not for taking this stand, but having known what I have known about what humans can use as an excuse to dehumanize others, I will never join such a game. And I am prepared to suffer for my stand, if need be, as Mandela said.
Some of the language in this conversation makes me to fear that even as I am, someone can get something about my life that can be an excuse to hate me. My ethnicity, my poor socioeconomic background etc. My lamentation.
Samuel
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 11:30:05 -0600
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: E.O. Eke is one of them (homosexuals)
From: oyeniyib@gmail.com
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Chapter 2 of the Criminal Act of 1990 entitled Parties to Offences, make clear that advocates of homosexuals rights commit no crime and are no liable. A few of the Act is reproduced below.
7. When an offence is committed, each of the following persons is deemed to have taken part in committing the offence and to be guilty of the offence, and may be charged with actually committing it, that is to say-
(a) every person who actually does the act or makes the omission which constitutes the offence;
(b) every person who does or omits to do any act for the purpose of enabling or aiding another person to commit the offence;
(c) every person who aids another person in committing the offence;
(d)any person who counsels or procures any other person to commit the offence.
In the fourth case he may be charged either with himself committing the offence or with counselling or procuring its commission. A conviction of counselling or procuring the commission of an offence entails the same consequences in all respects as a conviction of committing the offence. Any person who procures another to do or omit to do any act of such a nature that, if he had himself done the act or made the omission, the act or omission would have constituted an offence on his part, is guilty of an offence of the same kind, and is liable to the same punishment, as if he had himself done the act or made the omission; and he may be charged with himself doing the act or making the omission.
8. When two or more persons form a common intention to prosecute an unlawful purpose in conjunction with one another, and in the prosecution of such purpose an offence is committed of such a nature that its commission was a probable consequence of the prosecution of such purpose, each of them is deemed to have committed the offence.
9. When a person counsels another to commit an offence, and an offence is actually committed after such counsel by the person to whom it is given, it is immaterial whether the offence actually committed is the same as that counselled or a different one, or whether the offence is committed in the way counselled or in a different way, provided in either case that the facts constituting the offence actually committed are a probable consequence of carrying out the counsel.
In either case the person who gave the counsel is deemed to have counselled the other person to commit the offence actually committed by him.
10. A person who receives or assists another who is, to his knowledge guilty of an offence, in order to enable him to escape punishment, is said to become an accessory after the fact to the offence.
E.O. Eke or any advocate of homosexuals' rights, has therefore broken no law.
Oyeniyi
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To conflate standing up for the human dignity of people in Nigeria who are gays with promoting inappropriate sexual behavior is a lack of deep thinking in my view. Fornication and adultery is not criminalized in Nigeria but Islam and Christian have no hierarchy of sins in this respect. I know the same people will object to fornicators and adulterers being publicly disciplined as was the case with the controversy on disciplining women in Sharia who were found to be pregnant out of marriage, but there was no witness to the sexual act. If the argument is cultural, then there is nothing about the creation and use of culture that makes it impossible for abuse because of human fallibility. Culture is not a sanctuary clinically free from sin to anyone who studies it. After all, violence was an inherent part of the creation of Christian and Islamic cultures for anyone who cares to study the history of the two religions carefully.
One leader of the religious right in America said that once you agree that people have the right to self-defense, there is no limit to what they can use for self-defense. Presumably at some point people may need nuclear bomb for personal self-defense. This is why I earlier made the point that at some point the strong language that people use with regard to homosexuality can lead to civil war, and the language used in some of the debates below suggests this is possible if the people have the means to use violence to achieve their goal. Throughout history, before people commit violence against others, they first begin by coming up with a discourse that takes away the humanity of the people who are going to be the object of the violence. Doing so exonerates the conscience of the perpetrators of violence when they commit it and making it to look normal. I can see some elements of that in the debate below.
As Zimbarbo said, often when evil occurs, we focus on the evil act, but based on his experiment, what we need to focus on is the process that leads to the act. We learn better through understanding the process. Those heterosexual men who committed rape against women, girls, children, grand mothers etc, in the Democratic Republic of Congo are normal human beings. In one national geographic documentary on evil, they went to interview some of the women that were victims, and they deliberately asked them whether they thought the people who committed these rapes were ghosts or normal human beings. The women said they are normal human beings. The question then is: what went into their minds? I suppose some people will find that tolerable since it did not involve homosexual act. But will God feel the same way?
What I see in all this debate in an unavoidable conclusion: humans often end up socially constructing God. What they hate is what God hates, and what they like is what God likes. At a deeper anthropological level, it is difficult for humans to talk about God outside their experiences, and that is why the way people in the first century or 8th century talk about God is different from the way we do today because our minds and brains are not the same; we are not "tabula rasa." To me, anyone of us can be hated, irrespective of being straight or educated. It is just a question of what the person doing the hating based on his or her power, privilege, knowledge, understanding and courage to harm another person is willing to engage in in order to achieve his or her goal.
I am not a gay person, and know nothing about it experiential. But I will not allow any religious teaching to make me dehumanize a gay person on the understanding that because I am heterosexual I have no sin and I am pious before God. Being a homosexual which in religious terms is sin, does not still make the gay person loses his or her "being created in the image of God" if I may use this Christian language; my apology to those who are not familiar with the Christian tradition. If sin per se would make someone lose that status then all of us are in the same boat theologically. Religious people may like me or not for taking this stand, but having known what I have known about what humans can use as an excuse to dehumanize others, I will never join such a game. And I am prepared to suffer for my stand, if need be, as Mandela said.
Some of the language in this conversation makes me to fear that even as I am, someone can get something about my life that can be an excuse to hate me. My ethnicity, my poor socioeconomic background etc. My lamentation.
Samuel
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 11:30:05 -0600
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: E.O. Eke is one of them (homosexuals)
From: oyeniyib@gmail.com
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Chapter 2 of the Criminal Act of 1990 entitled Parties to Offences, make clear that advocates of homosexuals rights commit no crime and are no liable. A few of the Act is reproduced below.
7. When an offence is committed, each of the following persons is deemed to have taken part in committing the offence and to be guilty of the offence, and may be charged with actually committing it, that is to say-
(a) every person who actually does the act or makes the omission which constitutes the offence;
(b) every person who does or omits to do any act for the purpose of enabling or aiding another person to commit the offence;
(c) every person who aids another person in committing the offence;
(d)any person who counsels or procures any other person to commit the offence.
In the fourth case he may be charged either with himself committing the offence or with counselling or procuring its commission. A conviction of counselling or procuring the commission of an offence entails the same consequences in all respects as a conviction of committing the offence. Any person who procures another to do or omit to do any act of such a nature that, if he had himself done the act or made the omission, the act or omission would have constituted an offence on his part, is guilty of an offence of the same kind, and is liable to the same punishment, as if he had himself done the act or made the omission; and he may be charged with himself doing the act or making the omission.
8. When two or more persons form a common intention to prosecute an unlawful purpose in conjunction with one another, and in the prosecution of such purpose an offence is committed of such a nature that its commission was a probable consequence of the prosecution of such purpose, each of them is deemed to have committed the offence.
9. When a person counsels another to commit an offence, and an offence is actually committed after such counsel by the person to whom it is given, it is immaterial whether the offence actually committed is the same as that counselled or a different one, or whether the offence is committed in the way counselled or in a different way, provided in either case that the facts constituting the offence actually committed are a probable consequence of carrying out the counsel.
In either case the person who gave the counsel is deemed to have counselled the other person to commit the offence actually committed by him.
10. A person who receives or assists another who is, to his knowledge guilty of an offence, in order to enable him to escape punishment, is said to become an accessory after the fact to the offence.
E.O. Eke or any advocate of homosexuals' rights, has therefore broken no law.
Oyeniyi
On Jan 26, 2014 5:16 PM, <olakassimmd@aol.com> wrote:
Quote""A monkey is always a monkey even in UK. E.O. Eke is a monkey and he is a frustrated homosexual who can only bark without biting. He does not have the resources, courage and brain to match his words with actions; he is an empty vessel whose game plan to spread his homosexuality in Nigeria has been checkmated by Nigerians. He wanted to hide under the theory of tolerance and liberty to introduce a despicable gay-culture to Nigeria. He is a fool and nonentity and I challenge him to do his worse. May God punish him!Dr. Femi Ade
UnQuote
Dear All:The above quote is un befitting of a man in the healing profession.It also displays a lack of emotional maturity on the part of his writer.An important tenet of the medical profession is compassion to allhuman beings regardless of who they are, rich or poor, firm or infirmreligious or political affiliation as well as whether or not they are straightor gay.Even though physicians, like all other human beings, are free to hold their opinionson any issue of the day including on homosexualitymature and experienced physicians would follow the ethics of the professionin the way they and manner they handle emotive issues--such as abortions, homosexuality,religion and politics.For instance a physician might refuse to perform abortions in the jurisdictionin which he or she practices medicine, but he or she still owes a duty of care to refer thepatient to any other physician in his own institution or another where theservices might be available to the patient.A physician may not openly canvass hatred against any group of humanbeings for any purpose including sexual orientation.Not only might such hate messages either in verbal or written formswarrant his or her arrest under the hate lawsprevailing in his or her jurisdiction, he or she might lose the licence to practicemedicine upon conviction.Homosexuality is not a disease (like a viral or bacterial infection)that can be spread from person to person. Any physician who believesand canvasses this opinion is not worthyof his medical degree and is provably a quack until proven otherwise.Except for the above quote, I have consciously decided not to read anything written by Dr Femi Adebayo considering the attention seeking headers he uses for his homophobic posts.I would rather spend my precious time debating the fundamentalist Christiansand Muslims on the issue of homosexuality than debate a physician who shouldknow better than to be engaging in hate literature (if in fact Dr Adebayo's messagesencourage hatred towards gays and lesbians, either in general or on a personal basisdirected against Dr Eke, who may or may not be gay.)I will now take the time to peruse Dr Adebayo's posts. If the posts contain homophobicmessages that have the potential to cause harm to a single gay or lesbianin Nigeria or anywhere else in the world, I would be compelled to write a similar letter of complaint to the Registrar of the College of Medicine in whatever jurisdiction Dr Adebayo practices in the UK or elsewhere in the Europe.Bye,Ola---- Original Message ----
From: Yeye Rolling <yeyerolling@yahoo.com>
To: Femi Adebayo <femi07@hotmail.com>; eoeke <eoeke@aol.com>; basieffiong <basieffiong@gmail.com>; dakusobi <dakusobi@gmail.com>; okonkwonetworks <okonkwonetworks@googlegroups.com>; ramadi121361 <ramadi121361@gmail.com>; reukal <reukal@yahoo.co.uk>; molly.uzoh <molly.uzoh@learningright.com>; senrule <senrule@gmail.com>; skcogbonnia1 <skcogbonnia1@aol.com>; stephenuche <stephenuche@comcast.net>; olakassimmd <olakassimmd@aol.com>; pachusim <pachusim@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 26, 2014 11:06 am
Subject: Re: E.O. Eke is one of them (homosexuals)--Femi Adebayo:You want God to punish him because he's gay ?
From: Femi Adebayo <femi07@hotmail.com>
To:"eoeke@aol.com"<eoeke@aol.com>; "basieffiong@gmail.com"<basieffiong@gmail.com>; "dakusobi@gmail.com"<dakusobi@gmail.com>; "okonkwonetworks@googlegroups.com"<okonkwonetworks@googlegroups.com>; "ramadi121361@gmail.com"<ramadi121361@gmail.com>; "reukal@yahoo.co.uk"<reukal@yahoo.co.uk>; "molly.uzoh@learningright.com"<molly.uzoh@learningright.com>; "senrule@gmail.com"<senrule@gmail.com>; "skcogbonnia1@aol.com"<skcogbonnia1@aol.com>; "stephenuche@comcast.net"<stephenuche@comcast.net>; "olakassimmd@aol.com"<olakassimmd@aol.com>; "pachusim@yahoo.com"<pachusim@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 9:53 AM
Subject: FW: E.O. Eke is one of them (homosexuals)--
Subject: Re: E.O. Eke is one of them (homosexuals)
From: udanzainab@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 18:50:20 +0300
CC: eoeke@aol.com; basieffiong@gmail.com; dakusobi@gmail.com; senrule@gmail.com; okonkwonetworks@googlegroups.com; skcogbonnia1@aol.com; stephenuche@comcast.net; ramadi121361@gmail.com; molly.uzoh@learningright.com; reukal@yahoo.co.uk
To: femi07@hotmail.comAmeeeeeen mr Femi I concurDanzainab
Sent from my iPhone 5s
A monkey is always a monkey even in UK. E.O. Eke is a monkey and he is a frustrated homosexual who can only bark without biting. He does not have the resources, courage and brain to match his words with actions; he is an empty vessel whose game plan to spread his homosexuality in Nigeria has been checkmated by Nigerians. He wanted to hide under the theory of tolerance and liberty to introduce a despicable gay-culture to Nigeria. He is a fool and nonentity and I challenge him to do his worse. May God punish him!Dr. Femi Ade
To: femi07@hotmail.com
Subject:
From: eoeke@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 08:21:28 -0500Femi, This is a draft of letter I will email to ms@facs.org, I will also contact the GMC, tomorrow to loge a complait against you and they will follow it up if you are in deed a practicising surgeon in America. Since you have refused to learn, I will teach you a serious lesson. From now on the gloves are off. You have no right to do what you have done since 2011. I am giving you 48 hours to apologias and stop your stupid antics or you will have much to regret. i never make a threat I would not carry out.Dear Sir,Ref. Dr Femi AdebayoI would like to make inqueries about the above named doctor practicing in the united states. I would like to raise a professionla grivince against him because since 2011, he has been sending me hate mails and making inappropraiet homophobic comments, because I oppose the criminalisation and persecution of homosexuals in Nigeria.Thank youYours sincerelyDr E O Eke
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